Forums - Should Cammy be Top Tier? Show all 80 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Fighting Game Discussion (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=8) -- Should Cammy be Top Tier? (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12776) Posted by NJzFinest on 04:15:2001 07:42 AM: She seems really good and i think she should be top tier for a lot of reasons. She has an effective combo(launcher, aircombo, cannondrill, maximumspider super). it works on everyone who gets hit by it. she can also pressure people. she has a good normal jump. she can airthrow anyone to her effective combo. she has a fast walk which gives her throw priority. she can combo from a throw in the corner which isnt escapable. she is a great helper. i think she should be a top tier. anyone wanna tell me why she shouldnt be? Posted by Lord Doom on 04:15:2001 07:44 AM: Low stamina, an inability to punish helpers effectively and thats all i can think of. Posted by Lord Doom on 04:15:2001 07:45 AM: You made some very good points there. There might not be enough to move her to top tier but she's definitely near the top of the second tier. Posted by Nighthawk on 04:15:2001 07:47 AM: she has poor defense, and no great safe chipping super Posted by P-Chalk on 04:15:2001 07:55 AM: I love Cammy and when the killer bee is left out of games I start to cry and she's hands down the best female character in any fighting game shes in expect CvS where shes as crippled Kyo with only one super per version Posted by NJzFinest on 04:15:2001 07:56 AM: yeah but shes like a secondary magneto. magneto doesnt chip, he pressures and goes for point characters. also her maximum...cammy super just goes threw beams like nothing. Posted by Lord Doom on 04:15:2001 07:59 AM: True but Magneto has beams, a triangle jump, and can easily punish helpers. Posted by NJzFinest on 04:15:2001 08:04 AM: how does he punish helpers? if youre thinking of his launcher to tempest it can easily be pushed and it can be punished by a beam character. Posted by DarthSalamander on 04:15:2001 08:06 AM: Cammy cannot control the pace of the game like the top tier can. She has no long range game at all(even Magneto had disruptor and those wave things) and relies on getting close. She doesn't have an air dash, only a double jump. Basically the only thing Cammy has is to hit low or throw. You can tech the throw if you are looking for it. KBA is nice against Doom stuff, but that is about it. She also cannot punish helpers. She relies on supers for major damage, so she can't battery, and someone like Cable is frankly better for using meter. She can't chip either. NJzFinest: First off almost everyone in th gae has an effective combo in this game. Hell Hayato has a combo that does about as much damage as a maximum damage KBA combo. Saying it works on everyone that get hit by is kind of obvious too, they did get hit by it you know. Many characters can throw in the corner and add a combo that can't be escaped(like Charlie). Also her abailty as a helper isn't important. Capcom, Ken, etc. are all great helpers, but tiers look at the character as a point man. P-Chalk: Storm is far superior. However I still think Cammy is a good character. I don't think she is even 2nd tier, but she can still win matches with her positive qualities. Posted by Fozzy on 04:15:2001 08:07 AM: hmm Magneto can do alot more than Cammy - thats all to be said! Posted by NJzFinest on 04:15:2001 08:11 AM: her throws are faster. even her airthrow to too fast to techroll out of unless you know its coming or have very fast eyes. if you get an unsuspected airthrow off you can do more than half a lifebar. if you can do her cannondrill in a tigerknee motion you can combo OTG from it and if they block you'll already have recovered (her long ranged tactic). but even if she isnt top tier i think she is definately a 2nd tier Posted by on 04:15:2001 08:14 AM: Low defense, no keep away ability, no punishing supers (SPD works, but if you hit the assist and not the point, you're screwed), at this rate, Psylocke has a better chance of being top tier. Posted by DarthSalamander on 04:15:2001 08:16 AM: quote: Originally posted by NJzFinest her throws are faster. even her airthrow to too fast to techroll out of unless you know its coming or have very fast eyes. if you get an unsuspected airthrow off you can do more than half a lifebar. if you can do her cannondrill in a tigerknee motion you can combo OTG from it and if they block you'll already have recovered (her long ranged tactic). but even if she isnt top tier i think she is definately a 2nd tier I'm willing to bet fast eyes is part of any good tourney player. All you have to do is not let Cammy get close. This is not as hard as it may seem. Also if you are goign for air throws all someone has to do is hit you. OTG's aren't reliable. If she is 2nd tier she is on the bottom. Posted by NJzFinest on 04:15:2001 08:17 AM: please explain why another 2nd tier is better. Posted by DarthSalamander on 04:15:2001 08:43 AM: Iron Man- First off Smart bombs. Iron Man can use his smart bombs, fly cancel tactics to rain them down. They give most of the top tier trouble(keeps Cable pinned down, Spiral has trouble doing swords, etc). Has the infinite, so he can kill a whole character with one hit. Air dashes and flight give him a lot of maneuverability to get around traps and AAA's. Iron Cannon is a great super to DHC into. Unibeam is good, nice chip and is safe on Cable if he blocks it. Long nasty air combos that do great damage as well. Cammy- No actual projectile/beam. No way to really control the match. She is just going to run after whoever all day. AAA food. Please explain how Cammy is better than him, or any 2nd tier character for that matter. We can use Viscant's http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...p?threadid=1448 Posted by NJzFinest on 04:15:2001 08:47 AM: guess you have a point there. thanks Posted by DarthSalamander on 04:15:2001 09:12 AM: In all fairness though Cammy isn't bad. I mean here on SRK.com people will say that so and so beats this person with this tacttic and blah blah. Remember all this tier stuff is based on everyone at the same skill level. Your Cammy can easily toast Iron Man by landing two c.shorts. I've seen a lot of people use Cammy effectively. The last timed someone played I played Cammy I actually killed a guy's Cable before he could even chip her. Remember the tier shit is all in theory and on paper. That is how Duc wins with Team Shoto, or other good players compete with their "fun" teams. Posted by MadjaYcD on 04:15:2001 02:35 PM: Cammy isn't a battery character. She's actually an anchor for her wonderful anti-air assist. People think that this assist sucks because you can't combo off it, but it cleans up for you. There's too many characters on the screen? Call cammy and smack them all out. It's abuseable, and it hurts..including on opponent's assist characters. One Cammy anti-air takes a good 10% off of a assist character. It tracks you down too. As for Cammy on point, she needs to rely on a good assist to use her for her full potential. A simple air combo already means a good 20-30% off already because of her maximum cammy. Her dash is pretty fast, and her infinite isn't that hard. Not as much potential as Ironman's but it works. Good assists for her are slow projectile assists because she can cross up using her cannon drill and going to the other side, confusing the opponent..kinda like how you do a CaPcom Captain kick after calling an assist. It does good crossup. She's underrated, but she's better than people think, whether its people here or anyone else. Posted by [darkgohan45] on 04:15:2001 03:09 PM: no. I'm sorry even though she is really good. Her keep away abilities are nothing. She is a very good comboer indeed but her keep away abilities are worthless. Keep aways are made for keeping away then actually running up to combo is but her, she must need some type of trap and assist. The whole concept of her keeping away is easily maneuvered. People can just strike her quick once away at full screen. When she dashes into the opponent, the opponent will easily have a chance to strike. I'm sorry. Posted by DarthSalamander on 04:15:2001 03:47 PM: quote: Originally posted by [darkgohan45] no. I'm sorry even though she is really good. Her keep away abilities are nothing. She is a very good comboer indeed but her keep away abilities are worthless. Keep aways are made for keeping away then actually running up to combo is but her, she must need some type of trap and assist. The whole concept of her keeping away is easily maneuvered. People can just strike her quick once away at full screen. When she dashes into the opponent, the opponent will easily have a chance to strike. I'm sorry. Keep away isn't everything you know. Magneto? Strider/Doom? If Cammy had better rushdown options and the like her lack of keep away wouldn't be important. Keep away is not the only way to measure how good someone is. Posted by Pryde on 04:15:2001 04:23 PM: If you say she has no Stamina, then I can say the same thing for Styder, he has no Stamina either, he has no real chipping moves, besides ouroboros, but you can most likely runaway from that if you have an airdash or double jump, almost anyone can jump over his Legions, true, he does have projectiles like birds and dogs. He has teleport, but he's only relly good when you team him up with Doom/Sent/T.Bonne, does that really push him up to top tier? I have my own opinions on this and I don't think he should be top tier. As for Cammy, she basically can beat any with a projectle beam, example, Cyclops, etc... She does give Storm a hard time, cuz she can go through Hail Storm, she can get Magento after Tempest, She can beat more people than Stryder can, but I don't think anyone is thinking of that. She also has instant recovery tiger knee cannon drill if no one thought about that which can play mind games with peepz, there's alot more I can think of, but there's no point. I also have a 100% combo with her, no throws involved. BTW, if you're reading this Viscant, don't bother replying to me, I already heard it all. =Þ Posted by Big Rex on 04:15:2001 04:35 PM: Could u post the 100% combo, i would like 2 try it out. Does it involve an OTG? Posted by Lord Doom on 04:15:2001 04:50 PM: A lot of Cammy's shit is predictable though to me. If you miss any super of her's she's really going to catch it. Her throws are good but then again you could say the same Mganeto's RH throw in the corner. She has a great pressure game IMO but unless its one on one I feel that a lot of the time she is outmatched. And Mag really can punish helpers well, your right though about beamers, but it can be done you just have to be careful. Posted by [darkgohan45] on 04:15:2001 05:09 PM: quote: Originally posted by Lord Doom A lot of Cammy's shit is predictable though to me. If you miss any super of her's she's really going to catch it. Her throws are good but then again you could say the same Mganeto's RH throw in the corner. She has a great pressure game IMO but unless its one on one I feel that a lot of the time she is outmatched. And Mag really can punish helpers well, your right though about beamers, but it can be done you just have to be careful. Catch it? What does that mean? But if you say that, i disagree. After Cammy does a super and makes it, or misses it, the next move can hit her easily. Posted by DarthSalamander on 04:15:2001 05:38 PM: quote: Originally posted by [darkgohan45] Catch it? What does that mean? But if you say that, i disagree. After Cammy does a super and makes it, or misses it, the next move can hit her easily. I think he means Cammy will be punished severely by the opponent. Cammy's supers leave her very open when they are blocked or whiffed. So she is going to "catch it", the punishment. Posted by Mr. SmArTy on 04:15:2001 08:44 PM: Most of Cammy's combos don't do enough damage to the opponent and her stamina is way too low to compensate for her combos. Posted by Lord Doom on 04:15:2001 08:52 PM: Thank you for explaining the term catching it DarthSalamander. And I do agree, Cammy's combo's don't do enough damage for the damage that she takes. Most of her really good combos can be rolled out of. Posted by DarthSalamander on 04:15:2001 09:27 PM: uhh she does not do enough damage??!! Fucking hell, a maximum damage KBA combo(s.roundhouse(launch), sj.roundhousexx roundhouse cannondrillxx kba) does almost 90 damage out of 143. That is more than half life. All she has to do is land two shorts and your character just died(oh yeah, she is one the fastest in the game too). I think that is some worthy damage. You still have to stay on your toes versus a good Cammy. Also I believe she takes 112% damage. It is not that crippling. She doesn't take Strider level damage or Akuma level damage. Posted by Truedragon on 04:15:2001 11:06 PM: Pros: aaa good rushdown abilities trap breaking abilities(KBA, if she is a secondary character, alpha counter cannon spike immediatly KBA) Cons: Low stamina That's all I can think of for now, but I still consider her second tier, mainly because her rushdown while good, is nothing like Magneto's or Storm's which makes Mags(Mags is top for his great rushdown). That's why she's second tier IMO, her rushdown is good but not great, but she is without a doubt second tier. To Pryde:I recognize you being a top player and all but I'm wondering about your Cammy combo(100%). It's seems it includes an assist or a throw(but you claim no throw so I'm assuming their is an assist-most likely Tron's proj.) So I'm guessing you're using Tron's proj. the most damaging assist, so the team is Cammy/Tron/???? which isn't really an effective team. So my q is are you using an assist and do you have to use an assist for the combo to be 100%? Feel free not to answer my question though, as it is your combo and I know you want to keep it for B5 or possibly Ecc, but ever since you mentioned it I've been working on Cammy to find the combo, and found some things out. Lately I am doing the magic series, then going into a hp air throw, the funny thing is sometimes I am able to hit the opponent w/ no otg while they are still in the air and sometimes I can't.(probably because of my timing or something) I realize if I can connect the magic series into throw(which resets combo meter and damage scaling) I could go into a reg KBA combo and end up doing almost 100%(that's if it's possible to do so, plus if it is there is a chance for the opponent to tech, but there might be a glitch in the throw or something of the sort), but you say no throw involved, so I'm puzzled. Also is there an otg? and what's your definition of a regular/basic(not command) throw?(meaning do you think all throws are techible?, I know it sounds wierd but I mean if a unblockable, non-command-motion throw is untechable, would you still consider it a throw?) I just can't see how without an assist or a throw. Again feel free to ignore me because you have the right to, and it's your combo. Posted by LastGod VT on 04:15:2001 11:40 PM: Cammy sucks, shes boring and she eats my rocket punches for 20% damage each. Sentinel ownz her for free. Posted by Optiks on 04:15:2001 11:51 PM: Cammy can't chip or punish helpers. Her stamina is pretty bad but she is a pixie and they all take damage bad. What Cammy really has going for her is her AAA and her really fast ground dash. Also, her most damaging combo, the KBA aircombo, isn't generally used in tournaments because it misses sometimes during the auto combo for no reason. Overall, Cammy is too risky to be played at a tourney level which means she's not top tier. Posted by DarkZero on 04:16:2001 01:44 AM: Cammy is just second tier. The only thing I really like her is her AAA. She's not too bad on 1-1 though. Posted by MadjaYcD on 04:16:2001 01:50 AM: quote: Originally posted by LastGod VT Cammy sucks, shes boring and she eats my rocket punches for 20% damage each. Sentinel ownz her for free. Really...wow the people that must be playing cammy at your place must be really good. Cammy can eat up Sentinel if Sentinel isn't backed up. Posted by Pryde on 04:16:2001 03:01 AM: quote: Originally posted by LastGod VT Cammy sucks, shes boring and she eats my rocket punches for 20% damage each. Sentinel ownz her for free. Intersting, seeing how Cammy can duck under Sentinel's Rocket punch and she can go through a set of HSF also, you're not seeing the power of Cammy, I suggest you go to a real tourney and see her in action from a good player. I think she can pressure Sentinel real bad if it's a one on one game, since Sentinel has absolutely no close game strategies. True Dragon: I'll tell you 2 things, it involves a glitch and it's not T.Bonne Helper either. The maximum damage you can do with her and T.Bonne is 123/143 damage which isn't that bad. Posted by TalbainEric on 04:16:2001 03:07 AM: I totally agree!! She's top tier for a lot of reasons. Mostly everyone recognizes her for her speed. Her speed is a great asset to the fights,and she can pull of a good assist. Her Killer Bee is the perfect ending climax for combos,too. Last God VT: She does not suck at all. It all depends on how you play her. She's 4th pick at almost all the arcades I've went to. Try playing her. Posted by Kenny on 04:16:2001 03:42 AM: i played cammy.........she's really good with certain assist, such as sentinel, storm....etc....but even i think she's second tier..... Anti Air stops her..........especially captain commando.....that stops her rushing abilities easily.....she does have some good abilities such as an air cannon drill, invincible KBA, invincible anti air that stops doom and all.......but that means u're using her as an assist. Posted by Striding Cloud on 04:16:2001 04:30 AM: Cammy isn't "top tier",but she DEFINTITELY second tier.She is a very great rushdown character and is one of the best pixies in the game.I say a good Cammy can take a a Cable with no levels one on one.I've seen it done,and I've done it!!!^_^and her Killer Bee Assault goes through many things,she'll catch anybody that doesn't have a physical projectile or assist in the way!!^_^ Posted by Truedragon on 04:16:2001 04:35 AM: Thanks Pryde, I kinda guessed it had to involve some kind of damage glitch or some sort of glitch. I'll keep trying(hopefully I'll get it before the big tourney's start rollin in.) Posted by MadjaYcD on 04:16:2001 04:48 AM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde True Dragon: I'll tell you 2 things, it involves a glitch and it's not T.Bonne Helper either. The maximum damage you can do with her and T.Bonne is 123/143 damage which isn't that bad. Shoot, that Tron assist is pretty underrated. A simple magneto c.lk, c.lk, tron, hyper tempest means it's already over. Posted by [darkgohan45] on 04:16:2001 05:13 AM: hey! THis is turning into Cammy-clan. He was just asking if cammy should be top tier not own opinion on if she is good or she sucks. i'm talking to some people in this topic Posted by Lord Doom on 04:16:2001 05:53 AM: I like Cammy and always thought that she was good but just just think that her stamina and inability to punish helpers caused her to be second tier. Posted by Pryde on 04:16:2001 06:01 AM: I can say the same thing for Stryder and Spiral, they can't punish helpers either, but Stryder also has low Stamina, I'm assuming they could lock you down, so that makes them so good, bleh. Posted by Lord Doom on 04:16:2001 06:34 AM: true Pryde, I think that you explained that best. Not saying I love Strider. I really think that he sucks in this one, but he can bullshit one of your helpers with that Ouroborros trash of his. Spiral on the otherhand I think is overall a great charcter in the game. She has a great trap, best teleport in the game, and her level three is great when you hit it. She has decent assists. Her only problem to me is that her only really useful super requires three levels. Posted by cheese_master on 04:16:2001 10:19 AM: This is for those people who think Cammy should not be near the top of the second tier. Everyone is arguing that she does not have enough stamina... she has just as much life as Storm. She is a top level rushdown character... true she doesn't have the triangle jumps of Storm and Magneto... but team her up with Blackheart and Sentinel... you can use Cannon Drills to cross up the opponent with Sentinel's assist... this makes any area on the normal jumping and ground level of the screen very hard for the opponent to move. If you think Cable can punish Sentinel for free its not true... if Cable goes for a AHVB, Cammy can Cannon Spike XX Lock On... and nail Cable. Her Cannon Spike will go through the beam leaving her room to move back for the Lock On. She can use her hooligan combination on a cornered opponent teamed up with Sentinel's Assist... this makes excellent cornering tactics. Her tigerknee Cannon Drill has to be blocked high... so once the opponent is cornered... this makes a good mix up which can lead to the infinite. With Blackheart... she use his assist to take away high ground and a confusion tactic. She can throw the opponent while the Inferno is still up in between the two hits that have to be blocked. She is a semidescent battery. Her assist is perfect for Sentinel against rushdown. So she may not be able to punish assist characters... but one can do her qcf+KK on the assist if the main character is also blocking... and then XX into Sentinel's HSF... and if you have 3 supers left... thats a dead assist character. Her Matchups against top tier: Cable-- he cannot safely punish her assists so it makes the match more even. He can kill her if she makes one mistake... she can kill him if he makes two. Usually one makes more mistakes trying to stop rushdown rather than keep away. Sentinel-- While she can't keep up with him in stamina... he Cannon Drills and Cannon Dives easily knock Sentinel of his feet. Her throws come out quick enough to make a Sentinel player hesitant to turtle and assist. Her uppercut can stop a telegraphed rocket punch. Despite her low health... she wins this match up because she is too fast for him... and her glowing limbs knock him of his feet, plus she can guard break him easily... leading to painful combos. Storm-- Runaway Storm... give everyone problems... Cammy needs the right assist against her. Rushdown... Storm cannot triangle jump Cammy because of her uppercut or a good Cammy player can easily use a tigerknee buffer Cannon Drill or throw to stop her. Cammy can kill Storm in one and half mistakes... Storm can kill Cammy in two and half mistakes... advantage Cammy. Storm's only advantage is she can punish assists... but Cammy... dash in and uppercut her out of any of her supers. Doom-- He cannot do a thing against Cammy other than run... and not even that well. He cannot punish her assists safely but... she can snap him back if he tries to assist too much. Cammy won this one easily. Magneto-- This one is pretty even. Magneto cannot rushdown because of her uppercut. She can kill him in a less than two aircombos. He cannot do the same to her (mashing out of the Tempest isn't that hard). He cannot whiff a launcher on her on the ground because she can nail him with a Cannon-Drill XX Lock On. She cannot rush him down because his high defensive launcher defends well against her rushdown. He can limit her air Cannon Drills with a hyper grav. Blackheart... possibly her worst match up. Spiral... Cammy can stop wall of swords, with an assist because... most characters are larger than her. She can rushdown Spiral and not give any breathing room to get swords. Spiral can only run against Cammy. Cyclops... I can't say... because I have not fought many at point with Cammy. This should give you an idea to why I personally find Cammy one of the deadliest characters in the game. She is dead on with Ironman at the top of the second tier. She maybe better if used well. People underrate Cammy because she is the third character on a team... so she is usually fighting alone and half her bar is missing when she comes into the battle. This is very similar to Cyclops. But if she is used in the beginning with the right assists... she can be just as deadly as the top tier. She may not control space... but she can escape traps easily due to her size and Cannon Spike. She also forces most of the top tier to fight in at least in a discomfort zone (example Cable not able to punish assists for free, Mag not being able to rushdown easily) or even easily win the battle. I hope that tells you Cammy's pluses... her best Team is with Sentinel and Blackheart... because she complements their trap and is good to stop a rushdown on them. And Blackheart can start the infinite of her. Thats all. Posted by DarthSalamander on 04:16:2001 10:59 AM: quote: Originally posted by cheese_master This is for those people who think Cammy should not be near the top of the second tier. Everyone is arguing that she does not have enough stamina... she has just as much life as Storm. She is a top level rushdown character... true she doesn't have the triangle jumps of Storm and Magneto... but team her up with Blackheart and Sentinel... you can use Cannon Drills to cross up the opponent with Sentinel's assist... this makes any area on the normal jumping and ground level of the screen very hard for the opponent to move. If you think Cable can punish Sentinel for free its not true... if Cable goes for a AHVB, Cammy can Cannon Spike XX Lock On... and nail Cable. Her Cannon Spike will go through the beam leaving her room to move back for the Lock On. She can use her hooligan combination on a cornered opponent teamed up with Sentinel's Assist... this makes excellent cornering tactics. Her tigerknee Cannon Drill has to be blocked high... so once the opponent is cornered... this makes a good mix up which can lead to the infinite. With Blackheart... she use his assist to take away high ground and a confusion tactic. She can throw the opponent while the Inferno is still up in between the two hits that have to be blocked. She is a semidescent battery. Her assist is perfect for Sentinel against rushdown. So she may not be able to punish assist characters... but one can do her qcf+KK on the assist if the main character is also blocking... and then XX into Sentinel's HSF... and if you have 3 supers left... thats a dead assist character. Her Matchups against top tier: Cable-- he cannot safely punish her assists so it makes the match more even. He can kill her if she makes one mistake... she can kill him if he makes two. Usually one makes more mistakes trying to stop rushdown rather than keep away. Sentinel-- While she can't keep up with him in stamina... he Cannon Drills and Cannon Dives easily knock Sentinel of his feet. Her throws come out quick enough to make a Sentinel player hesitant to turtle and assist. Her uppercut can stop a telegraphed rocket punch. Despite her low health... she wins this match up because she is too fast for him... and her glowing limbs knock him of his feet, plus she can guard break him easily... leading to painful combos. Storm-- Runaway Storm... give everyone problems... Cammy needs the right assist against her. Rushdown... Storm cannot triangle jump Cammy because of her uppercut or a good Cammy player can easily use a tigerknee buffer Cannon Drill or throw to stop her. Cammy can kill Storm in one and half mistakes... Storm can kill Cammy in two and half mistakes... advantage Cammy. Storm's only advantage is she can punish assists... but Cammy... dash in and uppercut her out of any of her supers. Doom-- He cannot do a thing against Cammy other than run... and not even that well. He cannot punish her assists safely but... she can snap him back if he tries to assist too much. Cammy won this one easily. Magneto-- This one is pretty even. Magneto cannot rushdown because of her uppercut. She can kill him in a less than two aircombos. He cannot do the same to her (mashing out of the Tempest isn't that hard). He cannot whiff a launcher on her on the ground because she can nail him with a Cannon-Drill XX Lock On. She cannot rush him down because his high defensive launcher defends well against her rushdown. He can limit her air Cannon Drills with a hyper grav. Blackheart... possibly her worst match up. Spiral... Cammy can stop wall of swords, with an assist because... most characters are larger than her. She can rushdown Spiral and not give any breathing room to get swords. Spiral can only run against Cammy. Cyclops... I can't say... because I have not fought many at point with Cammy. This should give you an idea to why I personally find Cammy one of the deadliest characters in the game. She is dead on with Ironman at the top of the second tier. She maybe better if used well. People underrate Cammy because she is the third character on a team... so she is usually fighting alone and half her bar is missing when she comes into the battle. This is very similar to Cyclops. But if she is used in the beginning with the right assists... she can be just as deadly as the top tier. She may not control space... but she can escape traps easily due to her size and Cannon Spike. She also forces most of the top tier to fight in at least in a discomfort zone (example Cable not able to punish assists for free, Mag not being able to rushdown easily) or even easily win the battle. I hope that tells you Cammy's pluses... her best Team is with Sentinel and Blackheart... because she complements their trap and is good to stop a rushdown on them. And Blackheart can start the infinite of her. Thats all. Storm takes less damage then Cammy. Storm takes 106% and Cammy takes 112%. Do Dan's lvl 3 on them in the traing room. It does 100 to Cable(100%), 106 to Storm and 112 to Cammy. Also Mags can rush down Cammy, just block the Cannon Spike for god's sake. And she can do the same to his launcher. Your anaysis are horrible too. She can spanback Doom if he assists too much.... uhh yeah ANYONE can do that! This is not some Cammy only strat. Her uppercut can stop a telegraped rocket punch? For christ's sake, that is like saying all Sentinel has to do is punish a telegraphed KBA attmept. Ugh... Posted by Sentinels Force on 04:16:2001 12:13 PM: quote: Originally posted by Lord Doom Low stamina, an inability to punish helpers effectively and thats all i can think of. i dont think so its true she has very low defense but that bitch can whoop almost anyone in the game she has the ability with all her throws and the ability to link her throws with combos it all depends on how good is the player Posted by Tuff Daddy on 04:16:2001 02:14 PM: It seems like people are trying to replace Mags with Cammy. Cammy has a great rushdown. Try her on point with Cyke/Cable. A successful Cyke/Psy AAA assist = lp,lk,lp,lk, Cannon Drill XX KBA. She is surely low top tier in the right hands. She owns Cable w/ no meter. Rush Cammy down? Not likely. Your only hope is to run and run you will. Any good Cammy player will have you super jumping and clawing for your AAA assist...very predictable after while. She is in no way predictable. Her launcher is one of the best in the game in fact she has two (and if connected cancels into qcb + kk ouch!). With the right assists she can dominate. Low top tier indeed IMO. Posted by Pryde on 04:16:2001 02:37 PM: Interesting, like I don't want everyone to get the wrong impression that I think Cammy is the best or anything, she does have her bad match ups, and her worst match up is against Black Heart and Spiral, believe it or not. Cheese Master: Yes she can give Spiral a hard time, but Cammy can't do much except try to rush in and get hit by the swords, once Spiral gets the trap out, believe me, I have played with one of the best Spirals in the EC. To answer your question, yes she does dominate Cyclops, cuz he can't do supers randomly and not get KBA, but of course a pro player wouldn't do that, but try to get you into a block stun and do it so he won't get risk of getiing KBA. She does give Storm and Magneto a problem, but not the way you think they do. She can give Storm a harder time, but not Magneto IMO. Posted by [darkgohan45] on 04:16:2001 03:34 PM: Yes but cammy has some effective combos herself. No assists, just her own combos. (Darthslamander wrote this down somewhere in the topic anyways) Like jump in->lk, lk, c.hp, lp,lk,lp, wait ->double jump lp XX cannon spike XX KBA will hurt the enemy badly, though leaving her vunerable will do nothing, since after the combo they may take one hit and maybe one hit at all. You guys can block quickly after that and then use her speed. In capcomvssnk, her dodging abilities is actually unbelievable! Posted by [darkgohan45] on 04:16:2001 03:37 PM: and plus, on the other hand, cammy needs a good set of helpers just like magneto loves assists from storm. Cammy may need a good character to make her get up close quickly and easy. Posted by DarthSalamander on 04:16:2001 03:54 PM: quote: Originally posted by Tuff Daddy She owns Cable w/ no meter Who doesn't?. Posted by Spider-Dan on 04:16:2001 04:40 PM: You guys are comparing Magneto to Cammy? Magneto has many more damaging combos, but more importantly, he has about a zillion more ways to actually LAND them. He has a much better crossup game (Cammy's is non-existant), a better high/low game (triangle jump), better throw setups, he can dash behind assists, he has probably the fastest, farthest dash in the game, etc. Outside of that, he has a (fast) 8 way airdash, and Cammy does not... surely the value in that (defensively as well as offensively) is obvious? He also has the fastest non-super projectile in the game (Jab EM.D) so he at least has a threat from fullscreen. Comparing Strider to Cammy is totally pointless, Strider has the best trap in the game. If you're wondering why people say Strider is good when he takes so much damage, think about the fact that he has the best offensive teleport in the game, and that he can kill any character in the game with a little over 3 levels. Cammy has a good AAA (one of the top five, others being Ken, Commando, Psylocke, Cyclops) but her assist isn't as good as Ken's, and Ken is roughly equal as a point (neither have any assist punishing capabilities to speak of). Posted by Mech Zangief Master on 04:16:2001 07:09 PM: if cammy's so good then who'd win this match Mech Zangief Vs Cammy??? well the worst character in the game can beat her how is she top tier??? Zangief should be top tier!!! SongFu Shit it's Charlie Posted by Pryde on 04:16:2001 07:23 PM: quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan Cammy has a good AAA (one of the top five, others being Ken, Commando, Psylocke, Cyclops) but her assist isn't as good as Ken's, and Ken is roughly equal as a point (neither have any assist punishing capabilities to speak of). Spider-Dan:I understand what you are saying, of course Stryder has the best trap in the game, but I still don't think he belongs in top tier for my own reasons. Of course Magneto is better than Cammy, but to say, Cammy isn't helpless either. What is this comparing Ken to Cammy? Cammy has more OTG, more range in her launcher, one of the fastest dash, better throw range, double jump. But Ken has more priorities in his supers, a mix up with his roll, and a damaging combo that involves no super. I don't know but they are roughly equal if they were to fight eachother one on one, but Cammy can throw beams and many supers, that must count for something, so I don't think Cammy is comparable to Ken when fighting top tier characters. Posted by Tuff Daddy on 04:16:2001 08:08 PM: It seems like the WC players either haven't played Cammy or don't intend to. Perhaps I'm wrong but EC players seem to use Cammy quite effectively ... maybe a style issue here. No doubt she won't replace Mags completely never will. However if played correctly Ken, or anyone else doesn't stand a chance 1:1 against her. Another thing is her assist punishing capability. Hmmm.. I don't remember Dhalsim being able to "punish assists" anymore than Cammy and I'll bet that after B5 'ol Sim will be in the top tier. And I don't know where you play Mech Gief Master but the Cammys in Detroit would hand your Gief his ass proper like. Again just MO. T. Diddy Posted by cheese_master on 04:16:2001 08:52 PM: DarthSalamander, I was only giving some strats that a descent player can utilize when people play Sentinel. I am not saying that Cammy is the only person who can snapback Doom because it is a known fact that Doom has problems assisting against rushdown safely. Your saying that Sentinel can stop a KBA, well, how many Cammy players honestly use that outside of punishing beam characters and the combo. Sentinel players use the drones and rocket punch all the time to trap characters... well I am saying an advantage Cammy has is she does not have to sit there and let Sentinel do the ducking laser, block Spiral's swords and the drones... her uppercut has less frame start up than a super jump... so she can uppercut the drones.... which hurt Sentinel... most other characters... will have to block the Swords and the drones. And I was making a Cammy only strat their of things I utilize when using Cammy. That is to respond to people who think she is helpless and to those who believe she is not top second tier. Someone else that Ironman can cause Cable problems because of his smartbombs, fly mode assist etc... well I didn't hear you say something like "Thats stupid because Cable can punish Ironman when he misses a Proton Cannon." I understand... Ironman is big down there in Texas (at least one person I heard is pretty good that plays him). Well I personally like him but think he is completely screwed against Cable, Cyclops, and Blackheart... so should put him down and say he is less than second tier? Here in Michigan... people play Cammy... she may not be Magneto... but she has enough to cause most other top tier ass loads of problems... and in response to the Ironman post... I was giving reasons why. I agree my strats aren't top rated... but I am just another player... I am no James Chen at making faqs... and I don't think I will be... I was just responding to a post. Posted by Spider-Dan on 04:17:2001 12:26 AM: Let's clear this up. Cammy does exactly three things well (good enough to be worthwhile): 1) AAA 2) big aircombo (if you have meter) 3) invincible Max.Cammy As far as 1) goes, as has been detailed in other posts, Cammy does not have *the best* assist, in practically any situation. (Ken's is more invincible, Commando's has more coverage, Psylocke/Cyke set up combos better, Jin has more backside coverage) Anything she can do here, someone else can do better. When looking at 2), there are many characters that can do good aircombos with meter (e.g. Magneto, Storm, Doom, ironmen), and all of them have a much easier time landing their combos. Ken's aircombos do comparable damage and require no meter. Item 3) doesn't actually DO anything; if Cammy is snapped in during team battle time (before everyone else is dead) it's trivial to set up an assist "shield" so that she can't hit you, especially given that she can't do anything to assists (that doesn't result in her getting bent over when she's done). The Max.Cammy super is simply a deterrent to telegraphed chipping, but it doesn't work unless they actually do the super. And against Cammy, Cyke (for example) has no need to chip her with MOB, as he can out prioritize her in a straight ground battle anyway. Cammy is no different from Spidey, Wolvie, Marrow, etc. in this regard. I challenge the Cammy proponents to list some teams in which the standard AAA characters (Commando, Ken, Psylocke, Cyclops) or Magneto would not replace Cammy more effectively. Posted by Pryde on 04:17:2001 12:31 AM: Spider-Dan:Well, when I play against Cylcops on a one on one battle, Cammy always comes out on top and don't bother thinking that I must be playing some scrubby Cyclops player. I don't think he's that good and he basically just runsaway trying to build meter. All I need to against him is throw him and Cammy's throw range is pretty good. Bleh, no point in arguing with you either, well you have your opinions and I have mines, I won't bother arguing, cuz I can't see it from your point of view and you can't see it from mines. Posted by cheese_master on 04:17:2001 01:27 AM: SpiderDan Item 1, Of all the AAA you named, I see two as better... maybe. Cyclops because it sets up stuff with good range. And Ken because he is completely invincible. I don't see Capcom as any better because he stays in there long enough for Cable come back down, and kill him if the other player does not cover him perfectly. He also gets nailed by many other assists when they are in there before him (Doom). Psylocke has no range... so you have to get near the opponent or have him come to you... this never work against a Super jumping Cable, Spiral, Storm, Blackheart, Doom, or Cyclops. Ken is alright... but we will focus on him in item two. Cyclops is top tier. Cammy's unusal trajectory stops for supers when you are at most 3/4 the screen away... the only super I see her not stopping the hailstorm. Cammy, also does not get caught by all the hits of HSF like Capcom and Psylocke do. Her assist stops rushdown just as well as Jin, Capcom, Psy, Cyclops, and Ken. And she can knock out Doom's assist (if done early). Item 2 Cammy's aircombo works alot better than alot of the characters you stated. Ken??? when did he last launch someone in a top tier match? He has no range with the launcher don't have her speed. Storm, her aircombo does not damage, unless you try Duc's cross up, which most top level players won't fall for. IM, Cammy still does more damage than his AC. Magneto... where do you play that player don't mash out of the Tempest. Up in Michigan people played Magneto so long ago that people learned to mash out of the damn thing way early. Here if Magneto tries the Hyper Grav Tempest on Cammy... you can mash out and go into the KBA, to punish him for trying it. So Cammy's AC is more effective than his 1,4,1,4 PP, 1, 4, 1, 4, HP, HK. Item 3 Cammy is as good a point Character as Cyclops. Assist shield doesn't work. Cammy can Cannon Spike the assist out and cancel into the KBA if the time it properly... she nails the point with the KBA. You just gotta time her cancel very well. You can also do the Cannon Spike XX KBA and if do it high enough... she will bounce of the back wall and redirect to the main character. (I have played Cammy for a while). Plus her tigerknee Cannon Drills have no recovery and can be XX into the KBA if they hit and the opponent is not in the corner... or you can't do the infinite. Posted by BrazilionBH on 04:17:2001 02:03 AM: quote: Originally posted by NJzFinest She seems really good and i think she should be top tier for a lot of reasons. She has an effective combo(launcher, aircombo, cannondrill, maximumspider super). it works on everyone who gets hit by it. she can also pressure people. she has a good normal jump. she can airthrow anyone to her effective combo. she has a fast walk which gives her throw priority. she can combo from a throw in the corner which isnt escapable. she is a great helper. i think she should be a top tier. anyone wanna tell me why she shouldnt be? I think that she is top tier not only because of what you sed she is also a great AA... Posted by [darkgohan45] on 04:17:2001 02:34 AM: quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan Let's clear this up. Cammy does exactly three things well (good enough to be worthwhile): 1) AAA 2) big aircombo (if you have meter) 3) invincible Max.Cammy As far as 1) goes, as has been detailed in other posts, Cammy does not have *the best* assist, in practically any situation. (Ken's is more invincible, Commando's has more coverage, Psylocke/Cyke set up combos better, Jin has more backside coverage) Anything she can do here, someone else can do better. When looking at 2), there are many characters that can do good aircombos with meter (e.g. Magneto, Storm, Doom, ironmen), and all of them have a much easier time landing their combos. Ken's aircombos do comparable damage and require no meter. Item 3) doesn't actually DO anything; if Cammy is snapped in during team battle time (before everyone else is dead) it's trivial to set up an assist "shield" so that she can't hit you, especially given that she can't do anything to assists (that doesn't result in her getting bent over when she's done). The Max.Cammy super is simply a deterrent to telegraphed chipping, but it doesn't work unless they actually do the super. And against Cammy, Cyke (for example) has no need to chip her with MOB, as he can out prioritize her in a straight ground battle anyway. Cammy is no different from Spidey, Wolvie, Marrow, etc. in this regard. I challenge the Cammy proponents to list some teams in which the standard AAA characters (Commando, Ken, Psylocke, Cyclops) or Magneto would not replace Cammy more effectively. You have a good point about the assists. Posted by Pryde on 04:17:2001 02:38 AM: quote: Originally posted by [darkgohan45] You have a good point about the assists. Fucking Spammer Anyways, Cheesemaster, well said. Cammy is very powerful indeed, I guess most people haven't felt the power of Cammy. Posted by [darkgohan45] on 04:17:2001 02:42 AM: i'm no spammer! Posted by Spider-Dan on 04:17:2001 04:44 PM: quote: Originally posted by cheese_master Item 1, Of all the AAA you named, I see two as better... maybe. Cyclops because it sets up stuff with good range. And Ken because he is completely invincible. I don't see Capcom as any better because he stays in there long enough for Cable come back down, and kill him if the other player does not cover him perfectly. And Cammy doesn't???? Cammy will be on the screen for LONGER than Commando, in ANY situation. What about if you don't happen to be fighting Cable? What if you are fighting Blackheart? (Cammy is worthless) What if you are fighting runaway Storm or Dhalsim? (Cammy is worthless) Commando AAA is much, much (much) better than Cammy AAA, period. In most of the situations you want Commando, Cammy (or any other AAA) wouldn't do *anything*. quote: He also gets nailed by many other assists when they are in there before him (Doom). Psylocke has no range... so you have to get near the opponent or have him come to you... Which is where you want to be anyway, since you should be planning on following up Psylocke AAA with a combo. I specifically said that Psylocke and Cyclops were better for starting combos, and now you're talking about range.... talk about missing the point. quote: Cammy's unusal trajectory stops for supers when you are at most 3/4 the screen away... the only super I see her not stopping the hailstorm. I can't understand this. quote: Cammy, also does not get caught by all the hits of HSF like Capcom and Psylocke do. She does if you time it correctly.... are saying that the combo doesn't work on her? Either way, both Commando and Psylocke are better against Sentinel. Sentinel doesn't do anything that requires Cammy's extra invincibility (WRT Psylocke), and Commando is probably the best anti-Sentinel assist in the game. quote: And she can knock out Doom's assist (if done early). Who can't? (if done early) quote: Item 2 Cammy's aircombo works alot better than alot of the characters you stated. Ken??? when did he last launch someone in a top tier match? At the same time Cammy did; in garbage time 1v1 at the end of the match, the only time either of those two get on the field. quote: He has no range with the launcher don't have her speed. He does, however, have a crossup (roll), so he can land his combos. Most of the time, all you have to do against Cammy is block low... what is she going to do? She has no airdash, she has no ability to chip, she has nothing but dashing low short over and over. And even that isn't too fast (compared to Magneto or Wolvie). quote: Storm, her aircombo does not damage, unless you try Duc's cross up, which most top level players won't fall for. Storm still has way more ways to land her combos, and her aircombo does comparable damage to Cammy's (unless you are talking about 1 hit launch, 1 hit aircombo, Drill-super, which is not landable). quote: IM, Cammy still does more damage than his AC. Cammy's aircombo does more than 100%???? Which combo is this? quote: Magneto... where do you play that player don't mash out of the Tempest. Up in Michigan people played Magneto so long ago that people learned to mash out of the damn thing way early. Here if Magneto tries the Hyper Grav Tempest on Cammy... you can mash out and go into the KBA, to punish him for trying it. You guys must know something that everyone in California doesn't, since Magneto is still being used in tournaments here. I look forward to seeing examples of how Hypergrav-Tempest is "useless" at B5. quote: Item 3 Cammy is as good a point Character as Cyclops. Uhh, hell no. Cammy has exactly zero keepaway/chipping/assist punishing, Cyke has all of the above, plus insane air-to-air and air-to-ground priority (j.RH, j.D+RH). Which matches do you think Cammy wins, but Cyclops loses? quote: Assist shield doesn't work. Cammy can Cannon Spike the assist out and cancel into the KBA if the time it properly... she nails the point with the KBA. This simply doesn't work. You'd have to Cannon Spike every assist, and hope that the primary did a super, otherwise, you eat their favorite combo. This is to say nothing of popular assists (e.g. G-Sentinel, B-Doom) against whom this whole strategy simply wouldn't work. I'm still waiting for you to name teams that Cammy is actually better for than the other AAAs.... Posted by Pryde on 04:17:2001 06:37 PM: Hm..... interesting arguement here. I clearly don't see how Cyclops has better priority on the ground than Cammy, you may think Cammy is all about dashing c.short, but she has some good mix ups where you can throw people and of course most top players won't fall for it, but some will and of course you can roll her throws or tech it, but hey it's still worth a try. Cammy can go through beam supers like nothing she can even go through Hail Storm, probably one of the only person who can escape chipping damage next to Spiral, Ken, Psylocke, and Dhalsim. Can Cyclops do that? I don't think so. What would be a better team up, Magneto/Cammy or Magneto/Cyclops? IMO, I think it's Magneto/Cammy, plus she's better on point. She does 20/143 damage as an assist and CapCom does 22/143, but Guile does 24/143 Don't mind Guile, I just mentioned him for no reason. CapCom just covers the area in front of the point and not any further. Meaning if you're getting locked down by the Doom/BH trap, who would be a better trap breaker, Cammy or CapCom? I think Cammy, cuz she has better range, does she not. Of course you can use CapCom if you can Wave dash, but why take the risk when you can just walk forward a little and call Cammy? Don't get me wrong here Spider-Dan, I do think CapCom is a better assist, but Cammy does have her uses, you know what I mean. Like she has a little invincibility when she comes out where as CapCom doesn't and sometimes that little Invincibilty counts. But CapCom can cover the bottom and top of the screen like nothing and can punish the helper and point where as Cammy can't do that unless the point and assist is standing together. Let's see some matches here. This is all one on one matches. Cammy vs Storm or Cyclops vs Storm who would give who a harder time? Cyclops can attempt to jump around all day with j.RH and try to get out some supers for Chipping, but Storm can do the exact thing and she can't really runaway since Cyclops has Double Jump and tracking super. While Cammy vs Storm. Well it seems Easy, but Storm can't runaway with Typhoons w/o getting KBA and once she lands she MIGHT get a c.short from either side, depending if the Cammy player tries to do a cross up. She can't chip Cammy with Hail storm w.o getting KBA. Who would win this match? I think Cammy has a better chance. That's my opinion. Ok next match. Cammy vs Cable or Cyclops vs Cable. Cyclops can't safely do chipping on Cable w/o getting AHVB even on j.MOB he'll stll get AHVB, believe it or not. Best he can do is try to double jump and do SOB and hope he gets some chip damage. Cable grenade will eat up the beams from a SOB. Cammy can just pressure Cable, since Cable doesn't have a real close up combat action. I think Cammy can win this match w/o a problem. Unless Cable has a good back up assist. Cammy vs Spiral or Cyclops vs Spiral. Cyclops would definitely give Spiral a harder time than Cammy, winner is Cyclops. Cammy vs BH or Cyclops vs BH. Once again Cyclops would give BH a harder time than Cammy, Winner is Cyclops again. Cammy vs Sentinel or Cyclops vs Sentinel. Cyclops ownz Sentinel for free w/levels, Cammy would actually have to work for her victory. Winner again Cyclops. Cammy vs Magneto or Cyclops vs Magneto. I think this would be a close match, basing it on experience, but I'll give Cyclops the advantage, because of his chipping ability. Winner Cyclops. Cammy vs Ice Man or Cyclops vs Ice Man. Cyclops can't do nothing much besides try to fight Ice Man up and up o combat. Cammy is all about up and up combat and for once, Cammy can chip Ice Man with her Tigerknee drill where as Cyclops can't chip. Cammy vs Doom or Cyclops vs Doom. Cammy doesn't even have to work hard on this match, I think Cammy would give Doom a harder time than Cyclops would, I think even you Spider-Dan would agree on me with this. Winner Cammy. There are some other teams I can think of That Cammy is good with, but I'll post more on that later. Posted by [darkgohan45] on 04:17:2001 06:45 PM: it really matters though. Not al expertice players play the same way. They are using the character differently. It matters on how they use the char. Top tier in the other hand is mostly about ratio. Posted by Spider-Dan on 04:17:2001 07:21 PM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde Hm..... interesting arguement here. I clearly don't see how Cyclops has better priority on the ground than Cammy, you may think Cammy is all about dashing c.short, but she has some good mix ups where you can throw people and of course most top players won't fall for it, but some will and of course you can roll her throws or tech it, but hey it's still worth a try. Cammy can go through beam supers like nothing she can even go through Hail Storm, probably one of the only person who can escape chipping damage next to Spiral, Ken, Psylocke, and Dhalsim. Can Cyclops do that? I don't think so. However, Cyclops can actually do block damage to his opponent, so you have: a) Cammy, who can't give any and usually won't receive any b) Cyclops, who can do plenty and can punish a lot of characters for trying Plus, if Cammy comes out when assists are still alive, Max.Cammy becomes much much less useful, thanks to assist shields. Cyclops has to worry about no such thing. quote: What would be a better team up, Magneto/Cammy or Magneto/Cyclops? IMO, I think it's Magneto/Cammy, plus she's better on point. Why??? Who is the third character on this team? If it's Storm, you don't need Cammy; Storm doesn't really need invincible AAA to operate (neither does Magneto), and you give up potentially lethal combo setups (AAA into aircombo, super, DHC, regardless of point or order) for basically no reason. You've yet to prove that Cammy is a better point; in fact, your whole dissection of matchups below seems to directly indicate Cyke is better as a point. quote: Cammy vs Storm or Cyclops vs Storm who would give who a harder time? Cyclops can attempt to jump around all day with j.RH and try to get out some supers for Chipping, but Storm can do the exact thing and she can't really runaway since Cyclops has Double Jump and tracking super. While Cammy vs Storm. Well it seems Easy, but Storm can't runaway with Typhoons w/o getting KBA and once she lands she MIGHT get a c.short from either side, depending if the Cammy player tries to do a cross up. She can't chip Cammy with Hail storm w.o getting KBA. In summary, if Storm has the lead against Cammy, GG. (Storm does not need typhoons, she can just do standard plain-old runaway.) If Cammy has the lead, Storm certainly has the tools to try to land a combo (Cammy cannot runaway, has no long distance threat, Storm is no slouch as a pixie herself, plus has better high/low). If Storm has the lead against Cyke, he still has chipping as an option, he can bring her down with SOB, he can punish random hailstorms (with no retaliation if he guesses wrong). If Cyke has the lead, he still has his godly air-to-air, plus chipping to maintain a lead. quote: Cammy vs Ice Man or Cyclops vs Ice Man. Cyclops can't do nothing much besides try to fight Ice Man up and up o combat. Cammy is all about up and up combat and for once, Cammy can chip Ice Man with her Tigerknee drill where as Cyclops can't chip. Cyke can chip with Cyclone Kick, and unlike the Drill, which can only be used as a random poke (leaving you open to equally random icebeam, for example), Cyclops can chain into his special. quote: Cammy vs Doom or Cyclops vs Doom. Cammy doesn't even have to work hard on this match, I think Cammy would give Doom a harder time than Cyclops would, I think even you Spider-Dan would agree on me with this. Winner Cammy. I actually don't, I think both of them have a hard time getting around Doom's jabs, but Doom can't really throw photons (not that he should try). I think this match is pretty much a wash. Posted by cheese_master on 04:17:2001 07:23 PM: Spider-Dan, Cammy works better with Sentinel and Blackheart. Especially when they are up against a Strider, Doom team. I agree with you that Capcom is the best anti Sentinel AAA... but against the Strider Doom trap/rushdown... he does jackshit for Sentinel... Cammy at least knock away Doom or Strider (reducing the block damage or wasting Oroburos meter and not letting Strider build up supers). While Cammy's AAA might not take out Storm on this team, you have Blackheart... which does a fairly good job if you call him out smartly. Ken works better for this team than Cammy... but he sucks at point, he can rushdown a character 1 on 1. Ken also cannot start out the match, Cammy can. Cammy is better point character against Mag, Storm, Psy, rushdown... why? Because she can duck under Psy's anti air... that takes away Mag's main method of launch. She get a light kick into her launcher if Mag tries to launch her without Psy. The team of Cammy, Sentinel, and Blackheart, beat Mag, Storm, Psy, and that with Cammy at point. While you say all people have to do against Cammy is block low, well when she is close enough her Hooligan Combination grab comes out fast enough to catch a low blocker or someone jumping back after a low block... and it cannot be tech hit, you can only super jump away... and that why she has Blackheart. She also can follow it up if she is in the corner. That works well enough against turtles and mixes it up a lot more than Ken. While you said Cyclops can run away and chip... I don't see how. Against Cammy he can do either super without her nailing him out of his super with a KBA. He has better air priorty??? Just follow him up and do a Cannon Drill when he goes for a roundhouse... then see where the priority is. On top when she lands a Cannon Drill XX KBA... that hurts enough. So he really can't just SJ around and hope to nail you w/ a roundhouse. He can't just normal jump around either because she can just SJ into jab... and then RH Cannon Drill to break his guard and then KBA. On the ground she can do TigerKnee Cannon Drill to chip away at him and stick close to him, and XX into KBA when she connects. Cyclops definitely is a great point character 1 on 1 (in my opinion only second to Storm and Spiral) but Cammy in my opinion has the arsenal to make an even match... and when Cammy and him both have assists... Cammy has the advantage. About Magneto... I don't doubt that I will see Magneto in B5... he is the fastest character... and one of the few that can go high and low with a one frame difference. He builds meter quick and beats many characters easily. He has some of the best throws to help make his rushdown game even more deadly. He can punish an opponent calling out assists wildly and not covering them correctly with a Tempest. He can easily launch an assist to death and snapback an opponent. He outrun a snapback. His wavedash is great to escape many traps and punish cross screen mistakes. And he has a rejump infinite. These are the reasons I am going to see him in B5 and these are the reasons I and probably you see him in tournaments. His HyperGrab XX Tempest combos are not the reason why I see him in tournaments. Most players should have got a hang of mashing out of the Tempest. Because if you don't and the other person has another super bar and Storm as a follow up character... DHC XX into HailStorm virtually kills any character. That is the one reason I use to use this team and one reason why I learned to mash out. I'm sure he may have some other gay way to link his Tempest that you can't mash out of (I heard the fierce punch throw after a launch in the corner works if you follow up with a HG XX Tempest. I have yet to see it or try it... but so far mashing out the Tempest has gone pretty well for me, I don't know about you. Posted by NJzFinest on 04:17:2001 07:30 PM: Cammy AAA assist: loses to cyclops AAA (only the first punch. she beats his 2nd punch) beats commando AAA beats doom AAA (unless he comes in split second first) beats psylocke AAA beats cable AAA ties ken AAA (they both go to the top untouched) ties jin AAA does ok against a blackheart + AAA does ok against a runaway storm beats an aggressive sentinel flyer beats an aggressive magneto/storm rushdown beats a cable with levels (if you stay close to him) beats a strider doom (unless doom is already in) cammy is not a a bad AAA. she stays invincible to the top of her cannon spike unless she hits something solid in which case she flips back and loses invincibility. so if we're talking about AAA assists now she should be a top tier AAA. Posted by Pryde on 04:17:2001 07:37 PM: Whoops on one part Spider-Dan, I meant who would be a better team up Magneto/Cammy or Magneto/CapCom. True Cyclops can chip Ice Man with Cyclone kick, but still useless, where as Cammy can throw the fuck outta Ice Man or Tigerknee dril for the mix up. I still Think Cammy beats Ice Man. CheeseMaster: I disagree with you on one thing, I think Cyclops is a better team up with Sent/BH, cuz BH/Cyke is toooo good. Posted by Spider-Dan on 04:17:2001 07:56 PM: quote: Originally posted by cheese_master Cammy works better with Sentinel and Blackheart. Especially when they are up against a Strider, Doom team. I agree with you that Capcom is the best anti Sentinel AAA... but against the Strider Doom trap/rushdown... he does jackshit for Sentinel... Cammy at least knock away Doom or Strider (reducing the block damage or wasting Oroburos meter and not letting Strider build up supers). While Cammy's AAA might not take out Storm on this team, you have Blackheart... which does a fairly good job if you call him out smartly. Ken works better for this team than Cammy... but he sucks at point, he can rushdown a character 1 on 1. Ken also cannot start out the match, Cammy can. You summarized it pretty well. Commando is the best AAA for that team in general (Sentinel/BH, as evidenced by many tournament results), but against Strider, Commando isn't good; however, (as you said) Ken is better than Cammy against that particular team, and Commando is better against essentially everyone else. I'd argue that Cyclops is better than Cammy for that team, as well. The question of who can start at point is not exactly relevant; I still think Sentinel/BH/Commando beats more teams than Sentinel/BH/Cammy. quote: Cammy is better point character against Mag, Storm, Psy, rushdown... why? Because she can duck under Psy's anti air... that takes away Mag's main method of launch. Magneto doesn't need to rely on Psylocke as much... when you use your only AAA as a point against Magneto, you basically give him free reign to rush you down via other means, he can call Storm very liberally (she beats both your assists) and do triangle jumps and crossups all day long. Cammy can't punish any assists without DHCing out. quote: While you say all people have to do against Cammy is block low, well when she is close enough her Hooligan Combination grab comes out fast enough to catch a low blocker or someone jumping back after a low block... However, this move is not safe at all; if you guess right, you get ~10% from the throw (and a followup if they don't roll), if you guess wrong, you lose upwards of 50%. quote: While you said Cyclops can run away and chip... I don't see how. I was referring to Cyclops vs everyone else. Just because Felicia has a good match against Strider/Doom, that doesn't make her better than either of them. Posted by Spider-Dan on 04:17:2001 08:17 PM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde [B]Whoops on one part Spider-Dan, I meant who would be a better team up Magneto/Cammy or Magneto/CapCom. I don't think I've seen Magneto used with Commando, ever. Regardless of whether or not she's better in that particular instance (I don't think she's all that much better) they are both way worse than Psylocke or Cyclops in that situation. Posted by Pimpwitagun on 04:18:2001 09:06 AM: I play Cammy best out of all characters, and with my reg. team ussually lose only half/75% of her life and other characters near perfect or perfect (playing mostly scrubs of course), yet still realize that when power teams come into play, I'll get owned. SHes damned good, yet i would say number one in 2nd tier. All she would need in my opinion is ONE projectile... and she would be top tier. I love her though, she's my bitch! Posted by cheese_master on 04:18:2001 10:14 AM: Spider Dan, I think you have lost sight of this the main point of this post... which is "Is Cammy Top Tier?" You seem to think that in order to become top tier one must have the best assist from its category. Then for that matter Cable shouldn't be top tier... his AAA... is one of the worst amongst the AAA we are talking about... all it has is good damage potential and IM infinite set up capabilities. So under your logic... Cable is can't be top tier. Magneto must be bottom tier under your logic because his two assists are some of the worst in their respective categories. So lets go beyond the fact that there might be other AAA that you would pick in place of Cammy. Because if you can't get past that point then I definitely would hope that you don't play Spiral, Cable, and Sentinel (a team with a terrible anti air). Its clear that assists don't make the top tier. Now I personally feel a top tier character has good match ups against other top tiers. I have already said that Cammy can hang with any top tier except Blackheart... and probably Spiral now when I think about it again. Magneto and Storm are very debatable. So she has a tough time with 4 top tiers? Wow. I mean Sentinel has a tough time with Storm, Magneto, Blackheart, Cable, and Cyclops. Thats five people... so should we throw Sentinel out of the top tier? Cammy also has weaknesses against some non top tier like Spiderman and Wolverine. But then again Sentinel has weaknesses against Ironman, WM, Megaman, Tron Bonne, Psylocke, Ken, and Rubyheart and the list goes on. That dismisses that aspect of the top tier. Damaging bread and butter combo or trap... well... Cammy has a combo... she doesn't trap too well... but neither does Mag. So she doesn't have a triangle jump... but she can SJ and cancel into the Cannon Dive and use it to cross up. See might not have a follow up but it gives the momentum to her. She can dictate the following action... either throw or go low for the launcher. And in reply to your statement that against Cammy all you have to do is block low and tech hit throws is like against Cable all you gotta do is get the lead and start SJ like a moron and waste time. Cable's answer for that is Blackheart or CapCom. Cammy's answer for you statement is Dr. Doom or Spiral. The only thing Cammy lacks that a top tier has is... punishing assists. And you know what... I think I remember myself saying that she was second tier. And that is the reason why. Cammy may not be the rushdown king, or trap queen... but her good match ups against top tier... make her second tier. Iron Man is in the situation... his match ups against a Cable, Spiral, Sentinel, Blackheart, and may be even Doom make him second tier. Same with Cammy. She may not be the best. But she has many different usefulnesses at point against top tiers. Posted by [darkgohan45] on 04:18:2001 02:06 PM: quote: Originally posted by Pryde Whoops on one part Spider-Dan, I meant who would be a better team up Magneto/Cammy or Magneto/CapCom. True Cyclops can chip Ice Man with Cyclone kick, but still useless, where as Cammy can throw the fuck outta Ice Man or Tigerknee dril for the mix up. I still Think Cammy beats Ice Man. CheeseMaster: I disagree with you on one thing, I think Cyclops is a better team up with Sent/BH, cuz BH/Cyke is toooo good. Yeah, me too. I agree. Cyclops can chip ice man though iceman can counter attack from the way i've seen it to a c.hk. Posted by Sentinels Force on 04:18:2001 02:53 PM: quote: Originally posted by Pimpwitagun I play Cammy best out of all characters, and with my reg. team ussually lose only half/75% of her life and other characters near perfect or perfect (playing mostly scrubs of course), yet still realize that when power teams come into play, I'll get owned. SHes damned good, yet i would say number one in 2nd tier. All she would need in my opinion is ONE projectile... and she would be top tier. I love her though, she's my bitch! yeah that is true she can dominate over almost any charcter but the thing bad about her is that she lacks projectiles and her weak defense Posted by Pryde on 04:18:2001 03:53 PM: Well Cheese Master, I guess he's just explaining to us what he thinks of Cammy as an assist but as on point I think most of us know the power of Magneto already, but you brought up interesting point as how Magento and Cable's assist are not that useful, but think of it this way. Would you leave Magneto as a 2nd or 3rd character? No, cuz he's better to start off as point, and I don't think many people would use his assist any ways, I don't unless I do my Storm combo which involves Mag-B. Cammy in most cases wouldn't start off as a point character and usually is a 2nd or 3rd character, but in most cases the 3rd character. Well I'll discuss more later on, cuz I gotta go. Posted by GtXbY32 on 04:18:2001 04:15 PM: Another problem with her is her killer bee's doesnt do any chip damage, then her super that goes vertical is hard to connect and does no chip damage (but does hella damage if it connects), then her other super the cannon drill that goes from the ground up, well that does alotta chip damage but if it doesnt connect then she is COMPLETELY vulnerabe to a shinyuken, a hyper grab then magnetic tempest, an infinite, i mean everything!!! thats why i stopped using her, now i use iron man Posted by Spider-Dan on 04:18:2001 04:48 PM: quote: Originally posted by cheese_master Spider Dan, I think you have lost sight of this the main point of this post... which is "Is Cammy Top Tier?" You seem to think that in order to become top tier one must have the best assist from its category. When did I say that? I tried to use that as a justification for *Cammy* because as a point, she simply does not cut it. Her combos are not outstandingly damaging, she doesn't have any supers as good as AHVB, HSF, HOD, Photon Array, Hailstorm, etc, she has exactly zero trapping ability, she is probably one of the 5 worst chippers in the game. If you look at the rest of the top tier, with one exception, they all have exceptional traps/assist punishing/chipping. Magneto is the only exception, but it would be generous to call Cammy a handicapped Magneto; Magneto is the fastest character in the game, has an airdash, instant DHC setup from anywhere on screen, crazy crossup and confusion game, damaging combos and, even more importantly, non-combos, that allow you to string together throws and such and kill basically any cornered character. Cammy's combos are simply here-then-done. She has to start from scratch to land her next low short (outside of an ultra obvious XSF-style airthrow attempt). Cannon Spike (or any DP in a Marvel game, in general) is suicide while on point. Max.Cammy is a good deterrent, but one of the slowest supers in the game. quote: Now I personally feel a top tier character has good match ups against other top tiers. I have already said that Cammy can hang with any top tier except Blackheart... and probably Spiral now when I think about it again. Magneto and Storm are very debatable. So she has a tough time with 4 top tiers? Wow. ??? Cable Strider Storm Magneto Spiral BH The only top tier characters she has non-beatdown matches against are Sentinel and Doom (not to say that she actually wins those matches in a team dynamic), simply because she can take away some of their moves. This is to say nothing of the non-top tier characters who crush Cammy, e.g. Colossus, Juggernaut, etc. BTW I personally don't think Cyke is top tier based on team point play... I think his assist is a heavy consideration, as well as the fact that he is the best "assist" character if/when it comes down to 1-on-1. You don't see many teams starting Cyke on point. quote: And in reply to your statement that against Cammy all you have to do is block low and tech hit throws is like against Cable all you gotta do is get the lead and start SJ like a moron and waste time. Cable's answer for that is Blackheart or CapCom. Cammy's answer for you statement is Dr. Doom or Spiral.[quote] Problem: If Cammy is on point, and Doom or Spiral is your second, who's the third? How are they going to operate? Cammy doesn't lend well to many team dynamics. [quote]The only thing Cammy lacks that a top tier has is... punishing assists. Or a teleport, or an airdash, or an instant-fullscreen-super-with-no-recovery, like Strider, Spiral, Storm, Magneto, Doom, BH, Sentinel, and Cable. The other reasons why the top tier are so have a lot to do with ability to fill up the screen with junk (esp. BH, Spiral), and Cammy has no such ability. Essentially, there isn't anything that Cammy brings to a team that someone else wouldn't do better. You want anti-photons? Bring BH or Commando instead of Cammy, and you can still stop photons at any time, plus you can stop high altitude junk and BH as well. There simply isn't anything that Cammy does better than everyone else. She is a solid second tier character, and I believe you said so yourself. Posted by Pryde on 04:19:2001 03:58 PM: quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan When did I say that? I tried to use that as a justification for *Cammy* because as a point, she simply does not cut it. Her combos are not outstandingly damaging, she doesn't have any supers as good as AHVB, HSF, HOD, Photon Array, Hailstorm, etc, she has exactly zero trapping ability, she is probably one of the 5 worst chippers in the game. Once again I'd like to point out that she can bait people with helpers and do KBA, but I guess you're gonna say that people won't fall for that and shit like that, but she's the only one who can hit Storm out of her Hailstorm w/o taking any damage if timed right. quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan If you look at the rest of the top tier, with one exception, they all have exceptional traps/assist punishing/chipping. Magneto is the only exception, but it would be generous to call Cammy a handicapped Magneto; Magneto is the fastest character in the game, has an airdash, instant DHC setup from anywhere on screen, crazy crossup and confusion game, damaging combos and, even more importantly, non-combos, that allow you to string together throws and such and kill basically any cornered character. Cammy's combos are simply here-then-done. She has to start from scratch to land her next low short (outside of an ultra obvious XSF-style airthrow attempt).[/B] Yet, she still has the second fastest or third fastest dash next to Ice Man and Magneto. Like Magneto, Cammy can play similar mind games with you. You wanna block a c.lk? Fine, you'll eat a throw, just liike you can do with Magneto. quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan Cannon Spike (or any DP in a Marvel game, in general) is suicide while on point. Max.Cammy is a good deterrent, but one of the slowest supers in the game.[/B] What does her supers have to do with anything? It takes one frame for her to do her KBA and that's where invincibility is useful. You wanna MOB me, fine I'll just do KBA, all it takes is one frame and you'll eat a KBA. Her uppercut can also be used as a good cross up when you called a helper and do uppercut, cuz the screen will follow you, but yet again, you might say this is useless. quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan ??? Cable Strider Storm Magneto Spiral BH The only top tier characters she has non-beatdown matches against are Sentinel and Doom (not to say that she actually wins those matches in a team dynamic), simply because she can take away some of their moves.[/B] She gives Cable a good match up, but yet, I'm convinced now that you haven't seen a good Cammy, I'm still shaky about Magneto and Storm, but they don't own her for free, I'll say that. quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan This is to say nothing of the non-top tier characters who crush Cammy, e.g. Colossus, Juggernaut, etc.[/B] Well..Felicia beats Stryder, IM and WM beats Cable, Dhalsim beats Storm, so what's your point? Other snd tier characters beat top tier, does that automatically make them horrible? quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan BTW I personally don't think Cyke is top tier based on team point play... I think his assist is a heavy consideration, as well as the fact that he is the best "assist" character if/when it comes down to 1-on-1. You don't see many teams starting Cyke on point.[/B] Well in my belief, I don't think Cyke is top tier. quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan Or a teleport, or an airdash, or an instant-fullscreen-super-with-no-recovery, like Strider, Spiral, Storm, Magneto, Doom, BH, Sentinel, and Cable.[/B] Well all top tier character has a unique abilty and you have named them all, but I must say teleporters are still hittable for a frame, plus like I said she has the KBA which goes through supers. She also has a double jump, but many other characters do. quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan The other reasons why the top tier are so have a lot to do with ability to fill up the screen with junk (esp. BH, Spiral), and Cammy has no such ability.[/B] I'll say you brought up a good point here, but I guess she's the only one w/o a projectile, big deal, her upcloase combat compesates for that, but I understand it would be useless, if she couldn't reach them. quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan Essentially, there isn't anything that Cammy brings to a team that someone else wouldn't do better. You want anti-photons? Bring BH or Commando instead of Cammy, and you can still stop photons at any time, plus you can stop high altitude junk and BH as well. There simply isn't anything that Cammy does better than everyone else. She is a solid second tier character, and I believe you said so yourself. [/B] Well Cammy can go through Photons w/o taking any damage at all, but I guess your helpers like to take hits, plus she's a better fighter as point on certain situations. She certainly out combat CapCom in a one on one fight. All times are GMT. The time now is 01:09 AM. 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